{"id":3572,"date":"1996-10-01T14:34:06","date_gmt":"1996-10-01T14:34:06","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/meathpeacegroup.org\/wp\/?p=3572"},"modified":"2014-05-04T14:49:12","modified_gmt":"2014-05-04T14:49:12","slug":"1996-no-22-parading-disputes-in-northern-ireland-report","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"http:\/\/meathpeacegroup.org\/wp\/1996-no-22-parading-disputes-in-northern-ireland-report\/","title":{"rendered":"1996 – No. 22: “Parading Disputes in Northern Ireland” – report"},"content":{"rendered":"

No. 22 – \u201cParading Disputes in Northern Ireland\u201d<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Tuesday, 1st October, 1996 <\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

St. Columban\u2019s College, Dalgan Park, Navan<\/span><\/span><\/h2>\n

Speakers:<\/span><\/span><\/em><\/p>\n

Cllr. Brid Rogers <\/span><\/span>(SDLP Constituency Representative for Upper Bann)<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/h1>\n

Richard Whitten <\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>(Education Committee, Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland)<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

James Tansley <\/span><\/span>(First Secretary, British Embassy, Dublin)<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/h1>\n

Dominick Bryan <\/span><\/span>(Researcher, University of Ulster; <\/span><\/span><\/span>co-author of <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span>Parades and Protest<\/span><\/i><\/span><\/span><\/span>)<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/h1>\n

Neil Jarman <\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>(Researcher, University of Ulster; co-author of <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span>Parades and Protest<\/span><\/i><\/span><\/span><\/span>)<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/h1>\n

Chaired by<\/span><\/i><\/span><\/span> John Clancy <\/span><\/span>(Meath Peace Group)<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/h1>\n

Contents:<\/span><\/i><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Summary of main points <\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Addresses of speakers<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Questions and Comments <\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Editor’s note: This is the third public talk on the parading issue organised by the Group since 1993 – the previous two talks were held in Autumn of 1995 (Nos. 18 and 19).<\/i><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\n

SUMMARY OF MAIN POINTS<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

1. Brid Rogers (SDLP<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>):<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u2022 Historical background – a <\/span><\/span><\/span>divided State; two different allegiances<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u2022 Lack of consistency<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> in dealing with the parades<\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cone law for one side\u201d<\/i><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u2022 Conflict<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> between two sets of rights: dialogue and understanding needed <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u2022 Rights carry r<\/span><\/span><\/span>esponsibilities<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>; they also require the recognition that other people have rights<\/span><\/span><\/span>– \u201c<\/span><\/span><\/span>there is <\/i><\/span><\/span><\/span>no such thing as an absolute right<\/b><\/i><\/span><\/span><\/span>\u201d<\/i><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u2022 Need for structures to facilitate dialogue – <\/span><\/span><\/span>Parading commission<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u2022 Need for set of <\/span><\/span><\/span>principles and criteria<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> : not just a matter of policing <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u2022 Need for involvement of <\/span><\/span><\/span>all local interests<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> in a dispute as of right<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u2022 Need for consistency in dealing with <\/span><\/span><\/span>rerouting decisions<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>; such decisions must be made <\/span><\/span><\/span>in time<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

2. Richard Whitten (Orange Order):<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u2022 Divided communities, but <\/span><\/span><\/span>problem older than the N.I. State<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u2022 Right to peaceful procession<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> and celebration of culture and traditions – entitlement of every citizen in a free society<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u2022 Intention of parades to be peaceful – <\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>it is<\/span><\/span><\/span>\u201c<\/span><\/span><\/span>concerned residents groups who intend to create a breach of the peace\u201d<\/i><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u2022 \u201cConcerned residents groups\u201d are following what Orange Order consider to be a <\/span><\/span><\/span>\u201cSinn Fein agenda<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>\u201d: problems with talking to representatives nominated – no problem talking to elected representatives.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u2022 Need for <\/span><\/span><\/span>real parity of esteem<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> – real respect and tolerance<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u2022 Orange Order has made <\/span><\/span><\/span>some reforms<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> – especially in relation to bands employed (contract for bands). <\/span><\/span><\/span>Number<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> of loyal order parades actually reduced – often confused with band parades<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u2022 Orange Order has made a <\/span><\/span><\/span>submission to Independent Review Body<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> – many positive points contained in it<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

3. James Tansley (British Embassy<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>):<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u2022 Operational independence of the RUC<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u2022 Drumcree was a \u201cdisaster\u201d – appalling effects on both communities<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u2022 Marching issue emphasises the <\/span><\/span><\/span>difference between the two communities<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u2022 The tragedy arises from a <\/span><\/span><\/span>conflict of right with right<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u2022 Independent Review Body – terms of reference<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

4 and 5. Dominick Bryan and Neil Jarman (University of Ulster):<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u2022 Parading problem is the peace process at a local level – <\/span><\/span><\/span>\u201c it needs to be explored and dealt with at the same time as the bigger peace process<\/i><\/span><\/span><\/span> .\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u2022 Central arguments<\/span><\/span><\/span> – tradition and consent<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> – <\/span><\/span><\/span>trying to argue the same thing – trying to argue <\/i><\/span><\/span><\/span>power<\/b><\/i><\/span><\/span><\/span> – <\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> not good arguments. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u2022 The right to political, cultural and religious expression and demonstration a <\/span><\/span><\/span>very important human right<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> and must be safeguarded .<\/span><\/span><\/span>That <\/i><\/span><\/span><\/span>right must be extended to both communities<\/b><\/i><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u2022 There are <\/span><\/span><\/span>other rights<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> – the right to live in peace, the right to live free from fear, the right not to be offended. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u2022 Right to have a parade must be looked at in terms of a <\/span><\/span><\/span>whole series of events: <\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>Northern Ireland an <\/span><\/span><\/span>ethnically divided<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> area. <\/span><\/span><\/span>Need for balance<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> – need to look at nature, content, size, number , frequency of parades, involvement of outsiders. Need also to look at the <\/span><\/span><\/span>rights given to the minorities<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> in those areas to have their own parades. Need to address the totality of rights and to recognise that <\/span><\/span><\/span>rights bring responsibilities<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Options: <\/b><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u2022Mediation, compromise and dialogue<\/span><\/span><\/span>.<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u2022Responsible parading: guidelines and codes of practice; better stewarding; better management of parades; the way organisers <\/span><\/span><\/span>and<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> protestors deal with their symbols, deal with their attitudes, deal with their behaviour on the parades and on the protest. <\/span><\/span><\/span>Improvement of information available on parades<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> – better advance notice<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u2022 Need for framework – a <\/span><\/span><\/span>parading commission<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> which would coordinate and oversee, but would not give permission, sanction, stop or condemn the parades – a framework in which people can discuss the issue\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u2022 Law<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: number of areas of the law not currently used <\/span><\/span><\/span>. Changes in the law<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> to set up a parading commission, to empower the guidelines and codes of conduct, to set the parameters of some of the parades<\/span><\/span><\/span>. If an agreement is not reached the police will want to retain the power to make a decision based on public order<\/i><\/span><\/span><\/span> . <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\n

ADDRESSES OF SPEAKERS<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span>: <\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>\u201cParading Disputes in Northern Ireland\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

1. Cllr. Brid Rogers<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> (<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>SDLP Constituency representative for Upper Bann and Chair of SDLP Parades Committee<\/span><\/span><\/span>):<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Brid <\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>Rogers<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> thanked the Meath Peace Group for the invitation to talk in Navan and said that it was very important that people in all parts of Ireland should strive to understand the complexities of the Northern Ireland problem.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

SDLP position<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cWe in the SDLP fully appreciate the sensitivity and the complexity of the parades issue, both in political terms and in policing terms, and our concern has been not to exploit what is a very difficult and complex issue but to try and use our influence and our leadership in the interest of conciliation and accommodation, and to create a working norm of respect and being respected, and that is our position in the SDLP. None of us who are about today created the problem, but all of us are left to try and sort it out. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Historical background<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cWe tend to talk about the Orange Parades but they really are the parades of the loyal orders – there\u2019s the Orange Order, the Black Preceptory and the Apprentice Boys, and they\u2019re not really all the same – they have different structures of authority and so on. But the parades of the loyal orders – like all parades in Northern Ireland – have to be seen in the historical background of where they operate, and the historical background is the background of a State divided in that there are <\/span><\/span><\/span>two communities living in N.I. with two different allegiances<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>, and in a sense the N.I. State as set up represented one allegiance – the allegiance represented by the loyal orders and their parades. Therefore the parades of the loyal orders can\u2019t be seen as \u201cmardi-gras\u201d type parades which they would be in a normal society where the State had the allegiance of all the people and I suppose the parade in Navan last night [all-Ireland Gaelic football celebrations] was a mardi-gras type of affair and everyone enjoyed it and it was a joyous occasion for Meath people…..\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Celebration of culture<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> – one-sided approach: \u201cBasically, the loyal parades are a celebration of their culture – they celebrate their unionism, their Britishness, their Orangeism and their Protestantism, and that\u2019s perfectly ok – there isn\u2019t a thing wrong with that. The problem about it is that the State in N.I. was also a State which was a State made for unionism and Protestantism and loyalism and the cultural expression and the parades of the other allegiance in N.I., represented by nationalists and republicans, were never held in such esteem by the powers that be, with the result that, whereas the celebration of the Orange culture historically in Northern Ireland has been looked on with favour by the State, the <\/span><\/span><\/span>celebration of the other culture has been ghettoised <\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>and seen as something which \u201cyou can do in you own home but you mustn\u2019t do it where we have to see it.\u201d <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cGiven that there is a division about the State itself and the nature of the State, a celebration by one community is not smiled on by the other community. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Lack of consistency<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201c there grew up a <\/span><\/span><\/span>lack of consistency<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> in dealing with the parades, and the historical tradition in N.I. has been that, whereas the loyal orders have been allowed to parade in their own areas and indeed in all town centres and cities, and indeed through nationalist areas, it has always been expected that the nationalist parades would remain in their own areas and would not go outside them and would celebrate their own culture in their own ghettoes . What happened in Portadown in 1984 is a concrete example of that. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Parading disputes in Portadown, 1984<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> : \u201cIn 1984, there was a lot of trouble in Portadown because of Orange marches which went up and down through the Tunnel area which is a 99% nationalist street. Because they represented the culture of the dominant community who ruled the State their very going through that area represented a symbol of that domination….It was a symbolic gesture of domination in the area – there was a lot of resentment. There were , I think, four marches on the Twelfth July through that particular street, a very narrow street. Resentment built up because … nationalist parades who wanted to march on St. Patrick\u2019s Day [in Portadown] and who wanted to march around a circle, beginning at one point and finishing there, were always prevented from finishing the circle, because there was a little enclave where Protestants live. So instead of finishing the circle they had to go back the other way . This was seen as unevenhandedness – the same rule of law was not being applied . In 1984 a decision was made, after an application by St. Patrick\u2019s Band (which didn\u2019t carry flags, only its own banner) – they were given permission by the police to march through Park Road. They were about to go around when a mob gathered in the middle of the road with cudgels – the police said they could do nothing about them and the nationalist march had to turn back – the police, having known for three days that that was going to happen, they didn\u2019t prevent the mob gathering, they made no attempt to let the march through. That was seen as the police being prepared to force an Orange march through Obins Street 4 times in one day, but not being prepared to make the same provision for a small nationalist band who jsut wanted to complete the circle. That created a great deal of resentment in Portadown. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

One law for one side<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>:<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> \u201cI tell that story to show that from a nationalist perspective it is seen as <\/span><\/span><\/span>one law for one side and another law for the other<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> – it had historical roots because of the nature of the State but it didn\u2019t take away from the resentment. So, when I say that we\u2019re coming from different perspectives, I think that the Orange\/loyalist way of looking at is that \u201cwe have the right to march\u201d – and of course in a normal society everyone should have the right to march<\/span><\/span><\/span>. But no right is absolute<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>. So from their perspective they are being denied the right to march where they like when they like, but from a nationalist perspective, if the Orangemen are allowed to march where they like and when they like, even through nationalist areas where they are not welcome, then <\/span><\/span><\/span>that is interfering with the rights of nationalists to be left alone to live in peace<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> and not to be disrupted… <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Conflict between two sets of rights: need for dialogue:<\/b><\/span><\/span>\u00a0 <\/b>\u201cSo there are two sets of rights, and there is also a lack of consistency<\/span><\/span><\/span>. The problem is not a clash of right and wrong, it is a conflict really between two rights –<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> in a sense, on a smaller level, it is like the conflict in N.I. as a whole, which is a conflict between two sets of legitimate rights and when you seek a solution to something like that, there\u2019s only one way of finding a solution, and that\u2019s by getting the two conflicting rights and those who represent the two conflicting rights together in <\/span><\/span><\/span>dialogue<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> to try and work out an accommodation between them on the basis of <\/span><\/span><\/span>understanding.<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> Now that dialogue did not happen in Portadown – that dialogue was refused, and I have to be honest and say that the Orange Order in Portadown refused for a whole year to talk to the residents\u2019 committee in Portadown. Because of that refusal and that failure of dialogue we had what became known as Drumcree and the stand-off and the unfortunate consequences of that…. <\/span><\/span><\/span>I have never seen in my 25 years in N.I. politics such division within the community and such total lack of confidence in the police as I have seen since Drumcree<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> amongst nationalists. I think it shows that there is a very thin veil over the latent sectarianism in N.I. and until we deal with the basic causes of that and try to come to terms with finding structures at all levels, including on the marching issue, to deal with it, we are not going to solve it. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Derry:<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> \u201cDerry on the other hand this year could have been another conflagration, and the reason that it wasn\u2019t was because reason prevailed. Now it hasn\u2019t been resolved in Derry – it still remains to be resolved because the Apprentice Boys didn\u2019t walk on the walls. And by the way, I want to say here that <\/span><\/span><\/span>I would defend the right of the Apprentice Boys to walk the walls of Derry, because it is a tradition of theirs, it is a very important part of their history<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cI think that a proper resolution in Derry would see the Apprentice Boys <\/span><\/span><\/span>marching along the walls in peace and with the agreement of the people of the city.<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> … But what happened this year, because of Drumcree and the other issues, it became more difficult, and people were more divided than ever. After Drumcree Derry looked bad – yet dialogue happened. John Hume, being the public representative in that area, intervened; the local churches, local businessmen, the chamber of commerce became involved, as well as the residents and the Apprentice Boys. In fact what happened is I think the ideal and what should happen in future – because <\/span><\/span><\/span>the whole community became involved in the issue<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>. The issue of divisive marches doesn\u2019t just affect the people in the street through which the marchers want to march, or the marchers . – it affects the wider community as well. It affects the business community, it disrupts the whole community, it causes friction. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201c Resolution of these problems can only be done at a local level and it can only be done by all local interests becoming involved in the dialogue – and I have to hand it to all the interests in Derry … who sat down together and avoided confrontation, and I think that is the way forward. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Independent Review Body on Parades (North Committee):<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> <\/b>\u201cWe welcome the North Committee – we think it\u2019s a terrible pity that something wasn\u2019t done a year ago after the first Drumcree problem, after the first stand-off, which, you will remember, was resolved by compromise – and I\u2019m not going into the history of that because that was a disaster afterwards and made compromise more difficult this year – but it was resolved by dialogue and compromise at that stage. But then the whole thing blew up in our faces and it was obvious that something would need to be done, but unfortunately. and I have to blame the ultimate power – the government, because nothing was done by the government – it was pushed onto the police, and with all due respect there is no way that the police can be expected to resolve what is a symptom of our deepest problem in Northern Ireland – which is a problem of division and conflict – that\u2019s what the parades represent in many ways. <\/span><\/span><\/span>The police were in a \u201cno-win\u201d situation<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> no matter what they did. <\/span><\/span><\/span>It is not just a matter of policing – it is much more than that<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>. The North Committee will be looking at the issue and trying to come up with some kind of proposals – we will certainly be proposing that some kind of a process should be established to facilitate dialogue. There are only about 12, maybe 20, parades which are actually contentious, and if this isn\u2019t resolved it will get worse. Most marches go on without any problem – there are about 3, 000 in all every year – c. 300 of them republican\/nationalist, and the others belonging to the loyal orders . Some sort of process should be set up where dialogue can be facilitated.\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Suggestions for resolution of local disputes<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>:<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> <\/b>\u201cA c<\/span><\/span><\/span>ommission<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> could be set up which would be a facilitator for dialogue – it might have executive powers. Structures must be put in place to facilitate the dialogue which is so necessary to resolve the problem. Also we do need a set of <\/span><\/span><\/span>principles and criteria<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> – <\/span><\/span><\/span>there is no such thing as an absolute right<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>. <\/span><\/span><\/span>Rights carry responsibilities and they also require the recognition that other people have rights.<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Traditional argument<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cif you\u2019re talking about a traditional right of an Orange march which has always for a hundred years gone down this road, you have to recognise, 1), that times change, and 2), that the tradition was based on the dominance of one community over the other, on the right of that community to dominate the other, and therefore to the nationalists it represents a tradition of keeping them in their place. Therefore the traditional argument doesn\u2019t wear. But what has to happen is that criteria and principles have to be laid down – there has to be <\/span><\/span><\/span>consistency in dealing with rerouting decisions, and those decisions have to be made in time,<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> by whoever is making them, so that people know, so that there isn\u2019t a build-up of tension – that people know in advance. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Involvement of all local interests<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cI think the most important thing that I would see is that when it comes to resolving a local march that <\/span><\/span><\/span>all the local interests should be involved as of right<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> in the dialogue – at Portadown for example, it should be representatives of the Orange Order, representatives of the residents association, elected local representatives on both sides and business representatives who are also affected, and the churches. That would have the effect of broadening it out and making it the responsibility of the whole community in the area to get involved. That would go a long way towards resolving it. But basically it is a complex issue – it is seen from different perspectives, depending on which side you\u2019re standing on, and it\u2019s very important that it should be resolved by dialogue. Most importantly, something must be done between this and the next marching season and people have to start talking now so that we do not have a repeat of Drumcree and the Ormeau Road because that has led to <\/span><\/span><\/span>such a disastrous situation in Northern Ireland and which has set back not just the issues of the parading and the policing problem, but the whole political situation in Northern Ireland has been affected and the divisions have been strengthened a<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>nd that is not good for the body politic.\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

2. Richard Whitten <\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>(Education Committee, Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland):<\/span> <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Richard Whitten<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> thanked the Meath Peace Group for the invitation to come and put the Orange Order\u2019s point of view. \u201cA lot of what I am going to say is personal but we will be making a submission to the Commission on parades, and I have tried to be of assistance to the Grand Master in drawing that up. I hope that the Commission will be pleasantly surprised when they receive our submission, because we have tried not to be totally negative and we do actually make some some recommendations for some changes which I think will be acceptable to both communities. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Divided communities<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cI could agree with quite a lot of what Brid Rogers has just said – the problem of course is one of <\/span><\/span><\/span>two divided communities.<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> One point of disagreement – the <\/span><\/span><\/span>problem is older than the N.I. State<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>. Orangeism and Orange Order parades go back to the very first parade, in 1796, when Ireland was most definitely all one state. Indeed, right up to the First World War there were parades in Dublin , right back to the division of the State, there was a huge Orange rally in Ballsbridge, just outside Dublin, to try and keep all Ireland within the Union …..\u201d <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

He recalled an incident in his own district (Tanderagee, Co. Armagh), when an Orange hall in a small village was burned down \u201cas part of the Sinn Fein action showing respect for the two communities\u201d. At considerable expense to the local lodge, and after a long struggle, they reopened the new hall. A parade was held and a busload of Orangemen came up from the Wicklow district – \u201cI happened to be standing behind two of these Orangemen – quite elderly gentlemen. Behind the platform was the Union Jack fluttering in the breeze … one of the Wicklow Orangemen turned to the other and said – \u201cisn\u2019t it wonderful just to stand beneath that flag once again?\u201d. That affected me deeply…….\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cBrid mentioned the Tunnel incident in Portadown – it reminded me of another tunnel incident in another divided society (Israel) which happened only recently – we\u2019ve all seen the trouble that caused from the reaction of the Palestinian community. There\u2019s another part of the world where divided communities can so easily produce violent reactions…..\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cThe problem is older than the N.I. State …One thinks of the \u201cBattle of Dolly\u2019s Brae\u201d in 1849 as a result of which Orange Parades were banned for some 16 years, the ban being broken by the famous William Johnston of Ballykilbeg, when he walked from Bangor to Newtownards. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cDolly\u2019s Brae was a legal parade – it was protected by military at the front and rear because the supporters of O\u2019Connell had threatened to disrupt that parade…. they were fired on on the way back … the military cleared the hill. Eight people were killed – following the inquiry the Orange Order got the blame and as a result it was banned for 16 years. \u201c<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Right to peaceful procession<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: <\/span><\/span><\/span>\u201cWe would base our right to traditional parades to the simple human and civic right to peaceful procession and celebration of our culture and traditions<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/em> .”<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cIn every civilised society (I\u2019m taking this from a recent newspaper article), there are certain <\/span><\/span><\/span>fundamental freedoms, rights and liberties, protected by the State<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>. They range from the right to live in peace, to the right of freedom of belief and speech, to the right of free association and the right of cultural expression. These rights form <\/span><\/span><\/span>basic human rights which are the entitlement of every citizen in a free society.<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> Collectively the observance of these rights entitles us to consider ourselves as free men and women who can enjoy liberty in a just society . Once one component within this convention of human rights is denied <\/span><\/span><\/span>then our very free existence and liberty is to be questioned. <\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cNow one can trace the right to peaceful procession to the 2nd Amendment of the US Consitution , through the Charter of the United Nations, International Declaration of Human Rights, 1948, International Covenant of Civil and Politicial Rights, European Convention for the Protection of Human rights and Freedoms, European Social Charter – there\u2019s a <\/span><\/span><\/span>considerable body of international law dealing with the right of peaceful procession and the peaceful expression of your culture<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Peaceful intent<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cThe definition of course is in the <\/span><\/span><\/span>intent.<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> Now the Orange Order would maintain that in its traditional parades, such as the Ormeau Road, Garvaghy, Pomeroy etc., that the intention of the parades is to be peaceful, that the parade is not threatening violence – it is not threatening to break the law. Our contention is that it is the \u201cconcerned residents groups\u201d who sit down on the road, who block the highway, intend to create a breach of the peace – and our quarrel with the decision of the Chief Constable in the matter of Garvaghy Road is that <\/span><\/span><\/span>he elevated a threat from a residents\u2019 group to deliberately break the law higher than the peaceful intentions of the parade<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>, and that therefore because of a threat to break the law, a peaceful parade was denied its rights. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Sinn Fein agenda<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cThis problem is extremely difficult – but what makes the problem worse, from the Orange Order perspective, is that these concerned groups are following what we perceive to be a <\/span><\/span><\/span>Sinn Fein agenda<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>. The Orange Order did not promise last year that we would have a \u201clong hot summer \u201c- that was promised by Mr Maskey, one of the leading figures in Sinn Fein. It seems to us that since the IRA ceasefire, Sinn Fein have turned to street politics quite deliberately, as a <\/span><\/span><\/span>deliberate strategy, to polarise, divide, Balkanise, ghettoise the two communities.<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> It seems to me that they would love to create a situation where the Catholics live in one particular area, the Protestants live in another particular area. They tried this for 27 years and it\u2019s coming a lot closer after the events in Garvaghy, with the economic boycott, particularly in the west of the province.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Diverse society<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cWe would argue that it is not in the interests of the Orange Order, or anybody\u2019s interest in N.I., to drive both communities to such a polarised state where they live in exclusive ghettoes. <\/span><\/span><\/span>I want to live in a diverse society<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> – I want to see Catholics and Protestants still mixed – I want to go back to the days before the Troubles when the tradition in country areas always was, that, on the 12th July, a Catholic neighbour would do the milking for a Protestant dairy farmer so that he could get away and celebrate his day. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cIn August, The favour would be returned so that the Hibernian could celebrate his day, and the Protestant would do the milking for him. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cI would like to get back to those days – I know a lot of my Catholic neighbours came out and watched Orange parades for the wonderful display of pageantry – where would you see the like of it all over Europe? If this was properly handled it should be a marvellous boost for tourism north and south. You just do not see an Orange procession anywhere around the world. But <\/span><\/span><\/span>this bitterness, this hatred, this serious lack of toleration, grieves us deeply<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> We are conscious of De Valera\u2019s pledge about the Irish tricolour – the <\/span><\/span><\/span>green and the orange<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> – the white being the symbol of peace between the two traditions. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Parity of esteem<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cWe hear a lot about respect for the two traditions – <\/span><\/span><\/span>parity of esteem,<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> another phrase used very glibly by people like Mr Adams, Mr Maskey and Mr Macguinness. <\/span><\/span><\/span>We would ask for real parity of esteem<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>. Now if people cannot tolerate a church parade – not a 12th July parade – behind an accordion band consisting mainly of teenage girls playing hymn tunes – no party tunes on a church parade. If they cannot tolerate that for 5 minutes in a year <\/span><\/span><\/span>what hope do we have for living together in tolerance and mutual respect?<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> Those are the things that really do grieve us very very much.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cI have here a book by John Dunlop – one of the commissioners on the parades issue. I can\u2019t say that the appointment of John Dunlop particularly pleased the Orange Order because his views are well known – he was one of the senators in Queen\u2019s University responsible for taking the decision to stop playing the national anthem . In this book, John Dunlop writes –<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cunionists need to know that they are recognised and honoured by nationalists. This is a responsibility which devolves upon nationalists. Unionists cannot do this for themselves . This means that nationalists in both parts of the island need to be heard and seen to be concerned about the wellbeing of unionists as well as nationalists. This is not the case at present.\u201d. <\/i><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201c…Traditional and peaceful Orange parades have been going down certain streets for 187 years – and for most of the 187 years, even during the height of the \u201ctroubles\u201d when the bombs were going up, they weren\u2019t disrupted . Suddenly these last 3 years they have become a problem – I would suggest that we really do need to take heed of John Dunlop\u2019s words – and <\/span><\/span><\/span>we do need to see some geinuine respect and some genuine tolerance,<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> and I\u2019m sorry to say that it is lacking very much in our present situation. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Dialogue and consent<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cBrid mentioned \u201cdialogue\u201d, \u201cconsent of the local people\u201d – now quite frankly these two things cause us a lot of problems – for starters, who do the \u201cconcerned residents\u201d groups put up to negotiate with the Orange Order? If they put up Brid Rogers, an elected SDLP councillor in the Portadown area there would be no problem. I am quite happy to appear tonight with Brid. If they put up Alastair McDonnell, the elected SDLP councillor for the Ormeau Road area, the Markets area of Belfast, we would have no problem. As a matter of fact we already have had quite a considerable dialogue with him. He\u2019s been given copies of all the Orange Order literature on parades which he appreciated very much. But he is ignored by certain people in the so-called \u201cLower Ormeau Road Concerned Residents\u201d Group. They ignore the elected SDLP councillor! Because they are interested in pushing the SF agenda of division , of hatred, of polarisation . <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Garvaghy Road<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cBrendan McKenna, Garvaghy Road Residents Group, was sentenced to 14 years in prison for IRA terrorism – he blew up the British Legion Hall in Portadown. Now, like it or not, the Orange District in Portadown is not going to sit and talk with that man – they are not going to do it….<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Apprentice Boys\u2019 march in Derry<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cDonnchadha MacNiallais, of the Bogside Residents\u2019 Group, served 16 years for IRA terrorist activity – a leading member of Sinn Fein in the Londonderry area.- This is the guy they put up to speak for them. Brid claimed that John Hume had performed a wonderful piece of work in Londonderry – well, far be it for me to disagree. John Hume is a local MP, carried out his duty and brought both sides together, the Apprentice Boys and the Bogside Residents Group . But I want you to understand that Mac Niallais wrecked an agreement which John Hume had brokered. And the agreement was that a very small number of the Apprentice Boys, representative of the parent clubs just in the Londonderry area, would walk the wall – that the large number of Aprentice Boys who wanted to walk the wall would not in fact walk that wall. It had been agreed – a very small number, representative of the parent clubs, would actually walk the wall. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cBrid has eloquently explained the importance of the <\/span><\/span><\/span>Siege of Derry<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> to most Protestants, whether within the Orange Order or not. The Siege of Derry is a very very important event . John Hume had brokered that deal, but MacNiallais, at the last minute, wrecked it by trying to insist that any agreement would have to be inclusive of the Ormeau Road and Garvaghy and all the other contentious areas. So he wrecked it, virtually at the very last moment – now why? Now I would contend that that is because he is following the Sinn Fein agenda . <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Hatred and bigotry<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cWe have had some terrible incidents since – a busload of Orange women, some of them quite elderly, visited the museum attached to the Apprentice Boys Hall in Londonderry , which has items from the siege – original weapons etc all on display …. After visiting, they went out shopping and were stoned – some of them ended up needing hospital treatment. The Grand Master of the Orange District in Londonderry, who tried to protect them, got beaten up for his trouble. And all the time the concerned residents group was monitoring these women – monitoring them in case they tried to have a parade without giving 7 days notice! So this is the kind of <\/span><\/span><\/span>hatred, bigotry<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>, that we\u2019re up against. The Orange Order , Lord knows, has been accused of those things often enough, but we see it and it grieves us….. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Number of parades<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cIt is not true to say that the Orange Order has anything like 3,500 parades a year…. I think a lot of them are getting confused with <\/span><\/span><\/span>band parades<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> which have nothing to do with the Orange Order – some bands are linked with lodges but most stand independently and have their parades to raise money in many towns and villages . A lot of the money is actually given to charity. The Orange Order is not responsible for band parades and band parades should not be counted as part of the Orange Order. Some people do not know the difference between an Apprentice Boys parade, a Black Preceptory parade and an Orange Order parade – they\u2019re all just called Orange Order parades. I\u2019m afraid we get blamed for things for which we have no responsibility…. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cIn actual fact, the number of parades in recent years has been greatly reduced. One of the traditions, a very long tradition, in Orangeism in Belfast, was that just before the 12th, the lodge would go out to the Worshipful Master\u2019s house and get tea, put up the banner, and then walk to the centre of town. When the Troubles began that became impossible – that couldn\u2019t be continued. The Orange Order scrapped what must have been hundreds of separate little parades in Belfast and replaced them with the tradition of the <\/span><\/span><\/span>\u201cmini-twelfth<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>\u201d, where usually the Saturday before the Twelfth each district has a little parade of its own. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cSo actually we could say the number of parades has been reduced – even on the Garvaghy Road . The Portadown District tell me there used to be 7 Orange parades down the Garvaghy Road – that included of course the parade of country lodges down the Garvaghy Road on the 12th July. All of those have been given up, on police advice, some I have to admit with a bit of arm-twisting, but most voluntarily – all but one, the one church parade that has caused all the difficulty. <\/span><\/span><\/span>So actually the Orange Order has given up 6 parades on the Garvaghy Road and replaced them with one.<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Garvaghy Road<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cInspector Jackson, retired from the RUC, wrote a very interesting letter regarding the whole issue of the Garvaghy Road in which he went on the record as saying that as a replacement for the parade on Obins Street – that\u2019s the Tunnel area referred to earlier – … they suggested that the Orange Order should go down the Garvaghy Road, that in their eyes that was ok – they more or less gave an assurance to the Orange Order that there was no problem from their point of view with the Garvaghy Road. Then of course we find that that assurance given to Portadown Orange District was broken. Mr Jack Hermon , retired Chief Inspector of the RUC, went on record as saying that the original decision of the Chief Constable to reroute the church parade down Garvaghy Road, was a serious mistake . That he should have known from the previous year. He described it in terms that I\u2019m sure an Orangeman would disagree with – he described Portadown as the \u201cOrangeman\u2019s Vatican\u201d, and that any attempt to seriously reroute or ban parades in Portadown would cause great trouble. So, the Orange Order has reduced the number of parades – both in Portadown and elsewhere. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Contract for bands<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cThe Orange Order also has tried to tidy up its act with regard to parades – we are conscious – I don\u2019t want to come here before you and say that everything\u2019s perfect under the sun – it\u2019s not. Some years ago, conscious of criticism about the <\/span><\/span><\/span>behaviour of bands<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> attached to Orange lodges the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland introduced a conditions of engagement contract that all bands are required to sign , and if bands break this agreement they are forbidden to walk in an Orange demonstration anywhere around the world…. we are not allowed to hire that band. We have for instance:<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201call members of a band must maintain uniformity of dress to a standard reflecting the dignity and decorum of the institution with whom they are on parade. Shouting in an unseemly manner for emphasis of certain tunes is strictly forbidden…..\u201d<\/i><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cWe must distinguish between a Twelfth parade and a church parade –<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> hymn tunes are only played in a church parade – on the 12th July of course it is a celebration of the Boyne and we get all the traditional Orange tunes. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cBands will employ regulation step only in parade – drumming or twin drumming, dancing or jig time stepping by a member of the band is prohibited. In the case of church parades , recognisable hymn tunes or sacred marches only can be played<\/i><\/span><\/span><\/span>.\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Bands taking part in church parades must also attend the church service – and not be seen to be hanging around outside smoking. <\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201c It goes on to talk about the flags that are permitted to be carried by bands. That contract is not there for decoration … [Mr Whitten went on to describe an incident in Armagh District where a band was prohibited from carrying a flag bearing the letters \u201cUVF\u201d, even though they protested that the letters referred to the historic l UVF of Carson and Craig… ]<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cWe <\/span><\/span><\/span>have done<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> something about bands – we are prepared to take action . We are attempting at any rate, in the matter of the band contract, to clean up our act and make sure that our <\/span><\/span><\/span>demonstrations are peaceful. <\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Civil war<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cIt\u2019s been a very difficult summer, for everyone in Northern Ireland. I don\u2019t want to minimise it – I personally think we were extremely close to a civil war. I refer to the example, which might seem very simple, of the opening of a tunnel causing all that violence in Jerusalem this past week . An event which may seem to be silly to people on the outside – such as the rerouting of a church parade – can very often spark something in a community where you have tensions, where you have fears, where you have people saying that ‘the ceasefire\u2019s a sham’, that ‘Sinn Fein are winning’.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cAll it takes is a silly little incident to spark off a terrible confrontation.\u201d<\/b><\/i><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Hatred and intolerance<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cI want to end with something which I find personally shocking. I read this to illustrate the kind of thing we\u2019re up against – the hatred and intolerance that we\u2019re up against. This is Conor Cruise O\u2019Brien\u2019s book <\/span><\/span><\/span>States of Ireland<\/i><\/span><\/span><\/span>. I recommend this book to everyone … It was written just at the beginning of the Troubles. This story is when Conor Cruise was a member of the government and he was sent up to the North to meet leaders of the Catholic community – not just politicians – to try to get them to co-operate and to interrelate with their Protestant neighbours – that was the policy of the Dublin Government in those days. He said of a meeting with Catholics:<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cmost of them heard me with resignation but without manifest dissent – a typical comment was \u201cthough Frank Aiken [the Minister who sent Conor Cruise up there] was born in Armagh he had been away for a very long time\u201d. There was one man however, a local chieftain in a remote village in a desolate and hilly part of South Armagh who made no reply at all to my message. He was sitting in front of his little shop looking out across the glen in the stillness of a summer evening. Uneasily, to break the silence, I asked him whether there were many Protestants in the district. Then he spoke quietly: \u201cthere\u2019s only one Protestant in this townland and with the help of God we\u2019ll have him out of it by Christmas\u201d.<\/i><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Now unfortunately that attitude is all too present in parts of Northern Ireland, and as I say, <\/span><\/span><\/span>let\u2019s have some toleration<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>. Let\u2019s tolerate a church parade for 5 minutes in one day in a year. <\/span><\/span><\/span>Let us get to true respect – to true parity of esteem<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> between those two colours either side of the white of peace on the Irish Tricolour. Thank you very much ladies and gentlemen.\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

3. James Tansley <\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>(First Secretary, British Embassy, Dublin)<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cThere has been a lot of talk this evening about the <\/span><\/span><\/span>parade in Drumcree<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> and the way it was handled. Questions have been raised about the operational independence of the RUC – the role of the Northern Ireland Secretary in the approval or otherwise of parades, and the attitude of the RUC towards parades organised by unionists and nationalists. I\u2019d like to dwell briefly on each of those issues as I feel it puts in context the whole review of parades which was announced by the Northern Secretary in July. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

The operational independence of the RUC<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cIt is true that the wider power to impose a ban on a public procession or an open-air meeting in Northern Ireland rests in law with the Northern Secretary. But in practice such decisions are made only on the basis given by the Chief Constable. This is precisely what happened when the decision was taken for the Apprentice Boys in Londonderry in August this year. The <\/span><\/span><\/span>responsibility for evaluating a proposed parade against the statutory criteria rests with the RUC<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>, specifically the Chief Constable. In making such decisions as to whether a parade may follow a particular route, the RUC must decide as to whether that proposed route is likely to cause serious disorder , serious disruption to the life of the community or serious damage to property, or whether the purpose of the organisers is to intimidate others – if so <\/span><\/span><\/span>the RUC alone have the right to impose conditions on the parade.<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Drumcree:<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> \u201cMany commentators have wrongly assumed that Drumcree took the RUC by surprise. This was not the case – unprecedented efforts had been made – by the government, through the Northern Ireland Office, by church leaders, by the RUC, and by many others, including groups, residents groups and others in Portadown as far back as January this year. I should stress that from a government perspective there was an alternative non-contentious route available to the Orange Lodge from Portadown but they decided not to take it. The RUC had also served a lawful notice on the Orange Order which ordered the return stage of the parade at Portadown to be rerouted away from the Garvaghy Road. Following that decision, which had the full support of the British Government, there was serious public disorder at Drumcree and many other parts of Northern Ireland and there was a clear aim to overstretch the capacity of the RUC. Throughout those four days, following the original decision not to allow the parade to go down the Garvaghy Road , there were continuing efforts to reach an agreement within Drumcree. When these failed, and in the light of the circumstances, and the Chief Constable made clear that the situation was getting out of control, there was the danger that some 60-70,000 Orange marchers would be invited to converge on Drumcree, and that there was a <\/span><\/span><\/span>serious threat to life in the vicinity<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>, he took the decision to allow the parade to go ahead. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Consequences of Drumcree<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201c In the light of that, we are under no illusions of the consequences – the Secretary of State has described what happened at Drumcree that day as a <\/span><\/span><\/span>disaster.<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> It is a disaster in terms of <\/span><\/span><\/span>polarising the community<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> , and Brid and Richard have said that the events in the aftermath of Drumcree have left an appalling impression on both sides of the community . The question now is <\/span><\/span><\/span>not to look back but to look forward<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>. It wasn\u2019t the intention of the British Government to offend one side or the other , but as Brid has pointed out, the marching issue perhaps as much as any other issue in Northern Ireland emphasises the <\/span><\/span><\/span>difference between the two communities<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Unionist side<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cOn the <\/span><\/span><\/span>unionist side<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>, the inability to parade to and from a church service along a route sanctified by tradition is symbolic of a threat they perceive exist to their culture and sense of identity. I think it might at this time go deeper than that, in view of the current political situation. By their own interpretation of political developments the curtailment of the Orangemen\u2019s freedom to parade is evidence to unionists that the government is following a pro-nationalist agenda. I also feel that these changes are indicative of possible future attitudes to Protestant or unionist culture should there be any change in the constitutional status of Northern Ireland.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Nationalist side<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cOn the <\/span><\/span><\/span>nationalist side<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>, as Brid very eloquently made clear, the right of the Orange Order to march is fully recognised and accepted but it is qualified by an insistence that marches should not go through areas where they are not welcome and where offence could be caused by displays of triumphalism. Nationalists maintain that if they are to be citizens of Northern Ireland their status should be recognised as being fully equal to that of unionists. Such recognition in their eyes does not include being obliged to allow Orangemen to march in areas because they have always done so where the residents in those areas do not want them to march. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Conflict of rights<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cIn a nutshell, nationalists see the prevention or rerouting traditional marches as an indication of the extent to which things have moved on politically, while many unionists see it as an indicator of how much there is to be regained. As Brid made clear, the tragedy arises from a <\/span><\/span><\/span>conflict of right with right<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Independent Review Body on Parades<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>:<\/span><\/span><\/span> \u201cIt was against this background that the Northern Ireland Secretary announced in July a review – an independent review of the whole issue of parades. I will just read out the precise <\/span><\/span><\/span>terms of reference<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> of that review:<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

It is to review, in the light of evidence received from any interested party, and having regard to the particular experience of 1996, the current arrangements for handling public processions and open-air public meetings and associated public order issues in Northern Ireland, including <\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Firstly, the <\/span><\/span><\/span>adequacy of the current legal provisions<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> and particularly the adequacy of the statutory criteria used in making decisions on public processions and open-air meetings;<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Secondly, the <\/span><\/span><\/span>powers and responsibilities<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> of the Northern Ireland Secretary, the police and others; <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Thirdly, the possible need for <\/span><\/span><\/span>new machinery<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>, formal and informal, to play a part in determining whether and how certain public processions and open-air public meetings should take place; <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Fourthly, the possible role for, and composition of, <\/span><\/span><\/span>codes of practice<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> for organisers and participants in public processions and open-air public meetings;<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Finally, to make <\/span><\/span><\/span>recommendations<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> by the end of January 1997.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cThe review has started. Neil and Dominick have already been speaking to Professor North and Rev. John Dunlop in recent days. <\/span><\/span><\/span>The British Government has no preconceived idea of the outcome of that review<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>. It wishes to see a set of recommendations coming forth which gain acceptance across the community. We realise we are not going to solve the problems without a formula which does receive widespread or widescale acceptance. Will the changes lead to changes in legislation ? Again I\u2019m not going to prejudge the question. <\/span><\/span><\/span>All I can say is that one of the purposes in having a review completed by January 1997 is that it provides sufficient time if that were needed for any new legislation to be in place before next year\u2019s marching season begins. Thank you very much.\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

4. Dominick Bryan <\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>(researcher, University of Ulster, co-author of <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span>Parades and Protest<\/span><\/i><\/span><\/span><\/span>, June 1996):<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cThere are many points we can take up from what has already been said. What I intend to do is tell you a bit about the background of what Neil and I have been doing and tell you what we are doing at the moment. Then, between us we will offer a <\/span><\/span><\/span>range of possibilities<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> that we have been thinking about in trying to move this problem on. I\u2019m going to talk about some of the voluntary constraints, the codes of conduct, and Neil will talk about some of the other issues.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cNeil and I have both been working in the area of parades for 5 and 6 years. It\u2019s only in recent years that we\u2019ve started to look specifically at the problems. We\u2019ve had a couple of reports that have been published looking at the parading disputes, and what we are attempting to do at the moment is to try and talk to as many people and circulate as many people as we possibly can to try to move some of the debate forward. It is complicated – it isn\u2019t going to be an easy thing to solve. One thing I think everyone can agree on is that we cannot go through another summer such as we have just gone through – it\u2019s too horrendous to contemplate. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Central arguments<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cYou\u2019ve heard some of the arguments. I\u2019m going to discuss very briefly two central arguments that will be used over the coming weeks – one is the argument of <\/span><\/span><\/span>tradition<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>, and one is the argument of <\/span><\/span><\/span>consent<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>, very briefly I\u2019m going to suggest that they are trying to argue the same thing – they are trying to argue <\/span><\/span><\/span>power.<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Tradition<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> : \u201cD<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>escribing parades as traditional parades as having some special category is not going to solve any problems. Why? Because, though traditions are important to people, <\/span><\/span><\/span>traditions have been based on power<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cThe ability to parade in Northern Ireland has in general been based on the fact that the power situation which the Orange institution and the other institutions were in has meant that they have had greater parading rights than have nationalists. The number of parades – you just have to look through the history books to see the amount of nationalist parades that have been banned during the Stormont era in comparison to Orange parades. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cIn fact ironically I would suggest that Ian Paisley could have written the book on stopping parades in 1968 and 1969 – stopping nationalist parades what Ian Paisley seemed to be doing every weekend, and he could have probably written the book that the residents groups are now using. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

How do you judge a parade is traditional?<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> \u201cThat\u2019s very difficult. Parades have changed over the years and many of the symbols and things that go on in parades are very different from what went on twenty or thirty years ago. <\/span><\/span><\/span>I haven\u2019t yet heard a reasonable argument to suggest that because something is traditional it is necessarily right.<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> You could make an argument that a 100 years ago Catholics traditionally threw stones at Orange parades – I don\u2019t think that would make that tradition correct either. So I think <\/span><\/span><\/span>tradition<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> is not a good argument for allowing a parade. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Consent<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cI think <\/span><\/span><\/span>consent<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> is a pretty rotten argument as well. How does one judge whether an area is going to give consent or not? What percentage are you going to take – how are you going to take some sort of poll – some sort of judgment over that? It seems to me, as Mary Holland very recently described it, as ending up turning up Northern Ireland into a lot of little cantons. Interestingly of course the consent argument is exactly the same argument which the Orange Order used in 1920 for arguing that Northern Ireland should have been portioned off in the first place – that\u2019s the same argument that the residents groups are using<\/span><\/span><\/span>. It\u2019s about control of a particular area.<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> It seems to me that if we spend our time arguing on those two issues alone then we are not going to get anywhere – they are an argument over power, past power and future power. So we must find other ways. The options are not going to be easy – they\u2019re not going to solve the problems. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Responsible parading<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cSome of the options that we\u2019re going to have in the future is to draw up guidelines or codes of conduct which all parades would have to utilise. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201c By <\/span><\/span><\/span>guidelines<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>, I\u2019m talking about a framework within which decisions over the right to parade should take place – I\u2019m treating the right to parade as a very important human right. What was said about it being a human right is true – where I think the Orange Order have a problem in claiming that is that it is not a right that they found very easy to give generally to others, and we could go on about the cases in Lurgan where nationalist and republican parades have been stopped. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cBy a <\/span><\/span><\/span>code of conduct<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> I mean specific criteria to which organisers of events might work to. The aim of doing this would be to empower those in authority, both organising and policing the parade. I do think that the Orange institutions have had and still have a problem with the way they control parades – and between the image that they give of parades and what actually takes place there is still a very large gap. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201c I know Richard is addressing the problem, but they have a very long way to go to solve that problem – the use of UVF flags is a good example – if you started banning UVF flags in the Belfast Twelfth you\u2019d have a pretty short parade. The other thing is to <\/span><\/span><\/span>develop lines of responsibility in the way parades are controlled<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>. There are many current guidelines laid down by the organisations already, and Richard has read some of them out. I think those should be looked at seriously and also the organisations themselves should look seriously at how they implement those guidelines.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cThere are existing guidelines on the form which paraders have to put in to get permission for their parade. There is much British legislation which incidentally is not in force in Northern Ireland at present regarding control of major events, which I expect is the sort of thing the Review Body will be looking at. There are very well-written up guidelines on how large events such as pop concerts and sports events should be stewarded, and I think stewarding must really be looked at. This is not going to solve Portadown or the Ormeau Road dispute – let\u2019s not be fooled about that – but this would create a better environment in which these events take place. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Stewarding:<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> \u201cThere is a lot that can be done about stewarding – look at English football grounds 15 years ago and look at them now. Look at Glasgow Rangers football ground which used to have 400 policemen to look after a Glasgow-Celtic match. Now it only needs 40 – and that is because they\u2019ve looked at how their stewarding is properly managed. There are ways to look at the events so that they can be better managed and to reduce the sort of confrontations that might take place. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Geographical nature<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cWe do have to look at the geographical nature – when I say that consent of itself is not something that should be looked at, I do not mean that the people in an area need to be disregarded. I do think it important to take into account that Northern Ireland is an ethnically divided area. We can\u2019t disregard what residents think but it has to be balanced – we have to look at the nature of the parades, we have to look at the content of the parades , the size of a particular parade; we have to see how many outsiders are involved in a particular parade .<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cIn asking whether that particular parade is reasonable or not we have to look at how often those parades take place, to look at how many parades there are in an area and we have to look at the rights which are given to the minorities in those areas to have their own parades. Those are the sort of things that guidelines could look at. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Ability to control parades<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cWe need to look at the ability organisers have to control parades. There\u2019s a lot that could be done by people who hold demonstrations. We have to take into account certain mitigating factors – events that take place which may make a parade difficult on occasions. I\u2019m not talking about banning parades – I\u2019m saying that the right to have a parade must be looked at in terms of a whole series of events. In principle people should not be banned from any road in the country. I could go on at length about guidelines and codes of practice, and it will come up in discussion, but what I am trying to say is that at that lower level, I think there are things that could be done. \u201d<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

5. Neil Jarman <\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>(researcher, University of Ulster; co-author of <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span>Parades and Protest<\/span><\/i><\/span><\/span><\/span>)<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Right to political, cultural and religious expression<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201c<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>I want to re-iterate one thing that Dominick said <\/span><\/span><\/span>, <\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>that,although there\u2019s been problems over parades extensively over the last 2 years, and less extensively in the years leading up to that period, what I think has got to underpin an attempt to resolve the issue is <\/span><\/span><\/span>a need to recognise that the right to political, cultural and religious expression and demonstration has got to be safeguarded<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> and we \u2018ve got to facilitate that. If people want to parade, and it\u2019s an essential part of the social and political culture of Northern Ireland, we\u2019ve got to allow it…..<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cAt the same time <\/span><\/span><\/span>that right has got to be extended to both communities<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> and that right – the right to political expression – has got to bring with it certain forms of responsibility.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Totality of rights<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cThere\u2019s a lot of talk about the rights that people have – we have to balance those rights. There is no list saying which rights are first, second or third – they\u2019re all-encompassing. A lot of rights are talked about, but there are other rights – the right to live in peace, the right to live free from fear, the right not to be offended. People talk about communities going out of their way to be offended. We need to address the totality of rights and to recognise that rights bring with them <\/span><\/span><\/span>responsibilities<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Options: \u201c<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>So recognising that there\u2019s a need to address the issue politically, there are a <\/span><\/span><\/span>number of options<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> that can be taken up. These are some of the ideas we published in June – before the North Review Body was announced. They are ideas we elaborated with various parties – over the last winter we talked to various residents groups and members of the loyal orders and political leaders. These are some of the options – to some extent they are not mutually exclusive. There\u2019s no reason why we couldn\u2019t and perhaps shouldn\u2019t install all of these – We can move through voluntary constraints to more formal legal approach……..<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Mediation, dialogue<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cMediation and forms of local dialogue and compromise have been going on – they haven\u2019t worked all of the time, they have worked some of the time. One of the problems is a tendency to focus on the areas where the problems have not been resolved. There are some areas – for example, Bellaghy, where an agreement was reached this year. In Castlederg in 1995 there were disputes at a number of parades. Some form of accommodation was agreed – last year there were no disputes at Castlederg. So there are possible ways around the issue that can come through in local agreement – we need to look at those more so than at Drumcree. It\u2019s not total doom and gloom. Mediation, compromise and discussion are things that most people agree need to be carried on .<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Responsible parading<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> – the way organisers <\/span><\/span><\/span>and<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> protestors deal with their symbols, deal with their attitudes, deal with their behaviour on the pardes and on the protest. Focussing on the paraders all the time tends to ignore the fact that there are protestors – if protestors are going to have the right to protest there are going to have to be guidelines and constraints for paraders and protestors at the same time . The thing has got to be managed and balanced. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Law: \u201cChanging the law<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> has been advocated – it was a central plank of the LOCC\u2019s 6 principles for parading, and the Public Order Order has come in for widespread criticism. But I am wary of rushing down the line of changing the law and seeing that as a panacea for the problem. There are a number of areas of the law that are not currently used , for instance, there are a number of areas which the police find are all very well on the statute books but when it comes to the problems of the day they have problems in utilising them. Much of the law is unused at the moment, and perhaps we ought to move away from the formal law at the moment and push it back towards the mediation, the compromise and dialogue. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Tribunal<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cOne suggestion has been for a tribunal – a facilitatory body which would encourage dialogue, would manage dialogue and try and impose a series of structures that people should go through to encourage dialogue.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Information:<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> \u201c Part of that process would be to <\/span><\/span><\/span>improve the information<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> that is available on parades. One of the things people object to is that they often don\u2019t know about the parade in advance – they are quite surprised by it. Anybody living in Northern Ireland knows that sooner or later you could be driving out on a Sunday afternoon or a weekday evening in the summer, and you\u2019re going to get held up by a parade you weren\u2019t expecting. There is a case for better information management so that people could be aware of the parades more clearly. People need to be given time – to have a way of raising objections in a more orderly manner so that the protest is raised through dialogue rather than getting numbers of people out on the streets . By <\/span><\/span><\/span>giving the information further in advance<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>, that is one of the ways you can do that. When the Public Order Order was introduced (1987), there was a lot of fuss about the parades having to give 7 days notice in advance. Any attempt to extend that period of notice is obviously going to cause contention. If we go back and invoke the concept of tradition – the organisers know when the next round of parades will happen – they all know when they will be parading next year – so whynot tell everyone else and allow people to plan around that? Having advance notice gives people time to raise their protest in advance but it also gives you a longer period of time to discuss the problems, to engage in more structured forms of dialogue and mediation and hopefully come to a compromise. One of the problems with having 7 days notice of a parade is that it doesn\u2019t give you very much time to discuss the issue, to find a resolution to any protest. You\u2019re running up against deadlines – It\u2019s not like an industrial dispute, you know that come Saturday that parade is either going to come through or its going to be stopped. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Derry<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201c One of the advantages about the disputes concerning the Apprentice Boys Parade in August this year was that people knew about it 4 weeks in advance, or they were prepared to admit that they knew about it 4 weeks in advance, because people know these parades are coming up. but because they don\u2019t have to give notice until 7 days in advance, people can say we\u2019re not fully informed. The Apprentice Boys Parade was known about 4 weeks in advance, people focussed their minds, there was time to get the parties together, to engage in more structured dialogue and more focussed dialogue. And I take the point that was made – that it also allows time for people to be obstructive in this issue, and it also allows time for dialogue to break down. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Framework of coordination<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> – Parading commission: \u201cI think you need a framework around it, a framework of coordination which often doesn\u2019t happen in these disputes; sometimes you have 2 or 3 parties trying to facilitate or mediate between the parties, of one side not knowing what the other hand is doing. … A parading commission [could be set up] …which would coordinate, would oversee, but would not give permission, would not sanction, would not condemn the parades, would not stop the parades but would be there to try and focus a framework in which people can discuss the issue. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Changes in the law<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cYou may still need changes in the law to set up a parading commission, to empower the guidelines and codes of conduct that you want to introduce, to set the parameters of some of the parades. But on the other hand we\u2019re still going to have to recognise that at the end of the day if an agreement is not reached the police are going to have to make a decision based on public order – the police are going to want to retain that right, that power. A form of dialogue can encourage the decision one way or the other – but at the end of the day might will have to be addressed.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Need to address the issue<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201c We have to create a temporary space in which dialogue is nurtured and built upon. There are a limited number of parades that cause problems …. It has a potential to be increasing year by year, but at the same time, as Brid Rogers said, if the issue were addressed last year, we could competently say that in a number of those areas the parades problem would not have arisen, if the problem had been addressed, and if it had been addressed on the issue of rights rather than the issue of might. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Parading issue a mirror of broader political problem<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cIn some senses<\/span><\/span><\/span> the parading issue is a mirror of the broader political problem<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> – people don\u2019t sit down and engage in dialogue, people don\u2019t trust each other, people are unwilling to make compromises, people are unwilling to set a deal until all the pieces are in place – nothing is agreed. <\/span><\/span><\/span>The parading problem is the peace process at a local level<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> – and it needs to be explored and dealt with at the same time as the bigger peace process <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Chair:<\/strong> Thanking the speakers, and opening up the debate to questions from the floor, <\/span><\/span><\/span>John Clancy<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> said that \u201cthe issue, as has been described , is about <\/span><\/span><\/span>two rights, two freedoms, and freedom has been described as knowing your responsibilities<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>. Maybe this process that is going on now where after Drumcree, we all stared over the edge of an abyss and everybody was of the view that we saw a nightmare about to erupt – maybe it is the time to redefine and relook at our perception of freedom, our responsibilities to ourselves and to others:\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

QUESTIONS <\/span><\/span><\/span>AND COMMENTS (Summary only):<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

1. [<\/span><\/span><\/span>Q. for Richard Whitten: re representatives of residents]: \u201cYou did say that if elected representatives were put forward to speak for the residents, then the Orange Order in those particular hot spots would have no problem speaking with them … would members of the Orange Order also speak to other residents within the area, who had no hidden political agenda?\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Richard Whitten<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cMembers of the Orange Order have met some of the residents of Garvaghy Road. Negotiations have taken place. I cannot reveal names – that was done on the basis of confidence and that has to be respected by both sides. The Portadown District does have a problem with the spokesman put forward – the fact that he was responsible for blowing up part of Portadown town centre. This is what has raised the temperature – the fact that Portadown now has only got back together again. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Lurgan: \u201cReference was made to Lurgan, to Protestants stopping republican parades in Lurgan. Lurgan was completely devastated by a massive car bomb. Where do the people come from who planted the bomb? Where do they go back to?<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

[Member of audience]: \u201cThey were stopped long before there was a car bomb\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Richard Whitten<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cas far as I am aware the Orange Order itself is not stopping the parades from going through.. To us unfortunately it is mixed up with what we perceive to be a <\/span><\/span><\/span>Sinn Fein agenda,<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> and if somehow we could get the Sinn Fein agenda out of the equation then the Orange Order would have less of a problem talking to these groups – if we had that assurance, that the Sinn Fein agenda is not being advanced, then we would have less difficulty in talking to them.\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Brid Rogers<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201c…. I have to say that the picture of Orange marches presented by Richard , and which he probably believes, is <\/span><\/span><\/span>very far from the picture<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> that I have witnessed of Orange marches through the Tunnel. I have actually seen Orange marches going through the Tunnel and men stopping outside the parochial house to urinate just by way of insult.. I\u2019ve seen bands thumping the drums – I have stood on the sidewalk and witnessed it. The picture of lovely little girls in accordion bands – I\u2019m afraid it\u2019s very far from the truth of what Orange parades have meant to nationalist areas. But I do have to ask a question – Richard asked why not let them down for a <\/span><\/span><\/span>church parade lasting 5 minutes<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>? Well the reality of what happened last year was, first of all, if it is a case of a church parade walking down an area for 5 minutes, they are not being prevented from coming from church, it\u2019s just that they\u2019re being prevented from that one particular route. There are other routes available – one route was offered by the RUC during the stand-off.\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cI can understand Richard\u2019s feelings about talking to convicted IRA terrorists …. I have no time for convicted terrorists on any side. But from a nationalist perspective, watching the Drumcree stand-off, and watching Billy Wright, who parades around in a UVF T-shirt (a group which has murdered 42 people in the last 10 years alone …. women and children included). That man was parading around, in the churchyard – holding talks with the local representative of unionism. Yet you have problems talking with a man who was convicted 15 years ago and who, as far as I know, has not had a conviction since! … I can\u2019t understand why you have difficulty talking to one and no difficulty talking to the other. …. I sat down today at Stormont beside a man who killed one of my colleagues .. I have to sit beside him because there is no other way of getting into dialogue to try and resolve our problems. … If we\u2019re going to resolve the N.I. problem, whether it\u2019s the marches, or whether it\u2019s the bigger problem, <\/span><\/span><\/span>we are going to have to talk, not just to the people that we pick, that we like. We are going to have to talk to the people we don\u2019t like<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> and that we have very great reservations about.\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Garvaghy Road: \u201cAs for the Garvaghy Road Residents Group – there was a big public meeting which I attended and spoke at a week before the parade. That meeting was made up of people right across the community and there was no dissension about how they felt about the parades going through their areas. So, although the spokesperson may be someone that we don\u2019t like, there were other people on that committee too, and my understanding is that …. there was another man on that committee who was unacceptable to the Orangemen because he happened to be a Jesuit. \u201c<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Brid Rogers: <\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>\u201cOn <\/span><\/span><\/span>the right to peaceful assembly<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> – we all have the right to peaceful assembly, but we didn\u2019t get it . I wasn\u2019t allowed the right to peaceful assembly in 1969 [during the civil rights campaign] … but I\u2019m not going to go in to all that..<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Lurgan<\/span><\/span><\/span>:<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> \u201cThe situation in Lurgan is that it is not just the Sinn Fein march that couldn\u2019t go through. The Foresters … who have a parade every year from one church to the other are not even allowed to go round the square – they have to go against the traffic. …… .. There is a <\/span><\/span><\/span>great inconsistency<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>. Yet loyalist bands … can go up and down at will – it happens about once a week from May to end of July, and they disrupt the whole community ….\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Dominick Bryan<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: Re dialogue: \u201c… Alastair Simpson in Derry came out with more respect than when he went into it – it was MacNiallais who came out with less respect – it was he who was moving the goalposts and changing the rules. But it was the Apprentice Boys who claimed the high moral ground. If the Orange Order did talk to the people more regularly in public, they would be seen to be coming out of it in a better light. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Re disciplining of bands : \u201cone of the problems with the Orange Order and the Apprentice Boys is that they do often make concessions but they don\u2019t often publicise them and they don\u2019t often get the credit. They expect people to recognise what they have done and they lose credibility for things they are doing. They don\u2019t like to be seen to be compromising, to be making gestures – so that they don\u2019t lose face in their own community. But they don\u2019t gain respect in the other community.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Richard Whitten<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cWe would distinguish main roads as being different from walking through housing estates – Garvaghy Road and the Ormeau Road are main roads …. As far as I am aware the Orange Order does not walk through housing estates where they are not welcome. There are Protestants living at the end of Garvaghy Road and at the end of the Ormeau Road – are they to be denied the right to see their parade because people living off that main road don\u2019t want it. The fact is that there is not one single main road in Northern Ireland which is exclusively Catholic or exclusively Protestant. We still live, despite 27 years of hell, in largely mixed communities. It is not the agenda of the Orange Order to separate people into religious ghettoes. It is the agenda of Sinn Fein – it saddens me when I see the SDLP going along with that agenda. <\/span><\/span><\/span>I would like to see the SDLP standing apart from that agenda, and standing up to Sinn Fein.\u201d<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Brid Rogers<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cI said at the beginning that this was a conflict which was in danger of being exploited , and <\/span><\/span><\/span>it is being exploited on both sides<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> , and to me that\u2019s wrong…. But there is an inconsistency … nationalists are not allowed to parade down the Park Road in Portadown for instance – they have been stopped by Orangemen with cudgels and had to turn back … Surely if it\u2019s right for one it\u2019s right for the other ?\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Q. 2: [<\/span><\/span><\/span>from Member of Orange Order<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> in audience]: \u201c… Emotive terms have been used – in particular the references to UVF flags being carried by Orange lodges … I\u2019m disappointed with the use of emotive language when there is no necessity for it.\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Dominick Bryan<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cI did mention UVF flags on the 12th on the Lisburn Road but I didn\u2019t mention lodges carrying them. The bands carried them and that\u2019s the point I was making. The Orange Order should ask themselves <\/span><\/span><\/span>whose parade is it?<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> Because some of those bands are making a symbolic point which is quite against the ethos of the Orange Order…. There is a problem here – how parades are perceived. I can see how people can feel threatened. I know the Orange Order is considering this, and it can make a difference\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Q. 3: [from Member of Orange Order<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> in audience]: \u201cFirst of all, may I say that I do not want to deny my Irishness – but my Irishness is not exclusive. I can be British and Irish the way a Scotsman can be Scottish and British. … What Brid said of the Orange marches does not reflect my experience, maybe that\u2019s because of the area in which I parade. … <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

There is a lot of misinformation going around. Recently I took some visitors from Dublin to the Ormeau Road – they didn\u2019t know it was a commercial road. But why are we becoming increasingly polarised? Why is there trouble in certain areas? … <\/span><\/span><\/span>It is because there is an agenda<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>. I can remember as a child watching Orange parades – local residents came out….There are never any problems in Donegal – it is perfectly peaceful. Why should there be problems in Portadown or anywhere else? Because there isn\u2019t a political agenda at the Orange parade in Donegal, but there is a political agenda in the Ormeau Road, in Londonderry, in Bellaghy, in Garvaghy Road. What we have to get back to is <\/span><\/span><\/span>acceptance of our different traditions<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> – I can accept the non-exclusiveness of my Irishness – how can you be inclusive of my tradition. I don\u2019t see it working the other way.\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Q. 4: [re triumphalism at parades, particularly after 1995 Drumcree dispute].<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Richard Whitten<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cI am aware that people saw David Trimble and Ian Paisley as being triumphalist in 1995 – but I believe it was the relief of tension … We have made mistakes. But we have occasions to deal with misperceptions and on occasions exaggerations and outright lies….. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Q. 5 [re Orange Order agenda]: <\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> \u201cRichard has mentioned the Sinn Fein agenda, but I have attended some Orange marches and I didn\u2019t find them very acceptable, so I am wondering what is the agenda of the Orange Order? Are you making a statement that to be Orange is to be British and to be British is to be top dog? I have good friends who are Orangemen but I don\u2019t feel that Orangemen put themselves in the nationalists\u2019 boots. … I travelled to several areas in Northern Ireland this summer (after Drumcree). I came home so depressed. Drumcree was a tragedy. What will happen next year? … <\/span><\/span><\/span>I really wish the Orangemen would look at an Orange parade from a nationalist point of view<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> – it\u2019s not \u201cmardi-gras\u201d. What about the \u201ckick the Pope\u201d bands? I find them so offensive.\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Richard Whitten<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cOrange parades could not be described as mardi-gras. It\u2019s not a carnival atmosphere. It\u2019s more dignified, with people walking in ranks, with the banner in front, with either a Lambeg drum, or a band if they can afford it, with the worshipful master in front, with a deputy and perhaps two swordsmen on either side. …. That precise form of Orange parade comes from the <\/span><\/span><\/span>Irish Volunteers<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> – At the Battle of the Diamond, many ex-Volunteers took part, and these are the people who actually formed the Orange Order. It\u2019s a tradition. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201c The Orange Order was parading when Ireland had its own parliament, before the Act of Union – so the Orange Order predates the N.I. State by a long way and should not be confused with all the baggage that has been attached to N.I. over the years by nationalists and by Sinn Fein. Throwing discrimination at us, throwing \u201cno jobs\u201d at us is grossly unfair. I have even heard that one of the objections raised is that they wear dark suits, bowler hats and carry umbrellas! As to the agenda of the Orange parades – it is a cultural celebration – it is not meant to be triumphalist. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cIt is a very big organisation – it encompasses people who rarely go to church. We try to encourage them to go to church. The Orange Order has seldom been given thanks for trying to show the correct way to young people, for trying to inculcate in young people some kind of discipline, and preventing young people from straying into paramilitary groups.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Q. 6: James Tansley<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cThe questioner asked what is going to happen next year? … What do both of you think should be done?\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Brid Rogers<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cFirst I would like to ask Richard if he has any conception as to how the sectarian speeches made in the Field at the end of an Orange parade have affected nationalist perceptions of the Orange Order? … … <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cAs for remarks about a Sinn Fein agenda … it may well be that Sinn Fein have an agenda, but it isn\u2019t our agenda, it isn\u2019t my agenda. I have a constituency in Portadown who are <\/span><\/span><\/span>very aggrieved<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> at what has happened over the years, and at the <\/span><\/span><\/span>inconsistency and unevenhandedness<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> in the way marches are treated.. If you feel there is an agenda, then you should put forward your own agenda, and that agenda needs to be at the local level, at the macro-political level, an agenda where we enter into <\/span><\/span><\/span>serious dialogue meant to resolve the problem<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>, both the marching problem and the bigger problem. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cWhat has to be done between this and next year is that <\/span><\/span><\/span>people have to sit down, the Orange Order, the residents, the community representatives, the elected representatives and the churches have all got to talk the issue through and listen to one another and find an accommodation which won\u2019t be a victory for one side or the other.<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> People who take great exception to talking to some people have to swallow their pride and talk to those people and others who represent the nationalist community. That is the only way it will be resolved – to sit down and talk about it. Derry was a good example – the Apprentice Boys took the high moral ground, and I have to hand it to them – they got in there and they talked, and I have to admire them, I think they came out of it well. Donnchada MacNiallais came out of it badly, because I saw him moving the goalposts, and a lot of nationalists saw him moving the goalposts. And that\u2019s how you do it.\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Richard Whitten<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cI would say, wait and see. The Grand Lodge of Ireland is making a submission and there are a lot of positive points – it\u2019s not all going to be negative. I\u2019m not at liberty to say what the Orange Order intends to do next year, but wait and see our submission to the Commission.\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Q. 7 <\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>Julitta Clancy<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> [Meath Peace Group]: \u201c… I feel there is a huge problem of understanding – many in the Orange Order, and in the unionist community generally are not putting themselves in the shoes of the nationalist community, as was mentioned earlier. Equally, many nationalists – and indeed most people in the south – do not understand unionists. After Drumcree, there was great <\/span><\/span><\/span>polarisation <\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> – the 27 years of violence did not achieve such polarisation . If you\u2019re talking about <\/span><\/span><\/span>a Sinn Fein agenda<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> … who is actually feeding that agenda? People who are not entering into dialogue, and not talking. And who is strengthened by that? It\u2019s not the SDLP – it\u2019s people who did not represent the nationalists through all those years of violence, and they are getting increased support now, through the hardline attitudes. The majority of people in Northern Ireland … do not want to go back to that violence, yet Drumcree put everyone on the edge. I feel it did more than the 27 years of violence to polarise the communities. The Apprentice Boys at Derry last August [1996] did actually take the high moral ground, because they talked. But it\u2019s all in front of us again next year – and are we going to have a Bosnia-type situation in a country that really doesn\u2019t deserve it?\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

[Member of Orange Order in audience]:<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> \u201cThe point is that we have lived under pressure, since 1972 we have been ruled direct from London, and since 1985 we have been ruled by the Anglo-Irish Agreement. Every move has been a move by the South . The South, by sending up Dick Spring and others, are really causing the undercurrent and the reason for Drumcree. <\/span><\/span><\/span>Drumcree was the loyalist and unionist and Orange people of Northern Ireland saying we\u2019ve gone far enough<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>. Every time we\u2019re pushed from Dublin, pushed from London, that is the sort of reaction we\u2019re going to have. If you are living in a country that is under siege at every level – pan-nationalist front, Dublin-London, America – we saw an opportunity to say \u201cno\u201d at Drumcree and we took that opportunity. If you think that the demonstration of Drumcree surpassed the 27 years of violence, murder and mayhem then you are not living in Northern Ireland .. …. We were driven to Drumcree…\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Julitta:<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cI apologise if you got that impression – it was certainly not what I meant. All I meant to say was that extremists gained more from the situation than in all the 27 years of violence. I was not in any way trying to minimise the appalling suffering and killing. Unionists have told me that we don\u2019t understand how much Drumcree meant to them, and that they feel that \u201cDublin is deciding everything\u201d, but some have also said that they didn\u2019t like what happened on the Ormeau Road, the way the people were treated subsequently, when they were locked up in their houses for 24 hours. .. If there is an agenda, let\u2019s deal with it, and let\u2019s not let extremists gain out of this.\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

[Member of Orange Order]<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cI appreciate the points you are making, and I understand them. . But the polarisation you talked about is going to continue . … . … I would say to the politicians, and those who are pushing for a united Ireland, and pushing to take over this state, that you will have to answer for it\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Brid Rogers<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cNobody is pushing you into a united Ireland – even Gerry Adams has said there won\u2019t be a united Ireland in the foreseeable future. <\/span><\/span><\/span>There won\u2019t be a united Ireland unless unionists agree to it.<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> It\u2019s written in black and white in all the documents brought out by both governments. I don\u2019t want a united Ireland that is imposed on you by blood – nobody wants that. It wouldn\u2019t work anyway – so let\u2019s get real here. What we\u2019re talking about is finding structures which will accommodate me and my Irishness and you and your Britishness – if we don\u2019t do that, then those people who are trying to impose a solution, not the government, they\u2019re going to have the agenda themselves. <\/span><\/span><\/span>There is no threat to the union – there\u2019s more threat to the union by what happened at Drumcree than there is from the IRA<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> because, as the Chief Constable said, it was an attempt to disrupt the State – it was not the IRA, it was the Orangemen who did that.\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

[Member of Orange Order]<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span>: \u201cWill you and your party dissociate yourselves from Sinn Fein\/IRA and all their policies and all their actions – and you can start by condemning without reservation the boycott that is going on.\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Brid<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> Rogers: \u201cWe have condemned organised boycotts without reservation. If there are individuals who have made a decision, because they saw their shopkeeper on the barricades, far be it for me to tell them what to do. <\/span><\/span><\/span>An organised boycott is an evil thing and it affects both communities…..<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> Everyone suffers. It poisons the atmosphere….\u201d<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

CLOSING WORDS<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Concluding the discussion<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span> and calling for dialogue<\/span><\/span><\/span>, John Clancy<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> said that \u201c<\/span><\/span><\/span>dialogue must happen<\/b><\/span><\/span><\/span> – where there\u2019s a willingness to reach out for a solution, solutions do occur – when you show your willingness to talk, people see that and respect it.\u201d He thanked the speakers for giving so generously of their time, and he thanked the audience for their participation and for listening so well. <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

————————————————<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Meath Peace Group Report, November 1996. Taped by Anne Nolan. Compiled and edited by Julitta Clancy<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

(c)Meath Peace Group<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

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